😀 Hi everyone today is Monday January 27, 2003. I am adding new web links to a relatively new procedure that permanently removes acne scars. This procedure permanently removes all scars and it is similar to a procedure called Neelding BUT it is NOT needling. Please read these new links so you can deceide for yourself if you want to try this procedure. I opted to have only one scar done when I tried the Subcision the first time because I did not know how my skin would react to this procedure, and I guess I am a ‘fraddy cat’ when it comes to my face. I am very pleased with the results from my Subcision. It is just 2 weeks now, and I have 2 to 4 more weeks where my body will be replacing new collagen in my face where the scar is located, that I had Subcised. All that I can see right now is a reddish mark where the ugly scar used to be. I cover it up with make-up when I go out. I would say that I have had a 80 to 90 percent fill in on this scar. I have not posted the doctors name but she is one of only a few doctors that are doing this procedure right now in the United States. I think I will ask her if it is alright to post her name here before I do it. BUT if you e-mail me here at this site I will give you her name and address. She already has a lot of patients traveling to see her to have this procedure done because she has been doing it a while, and I guess her name has already been mentioned on the web. She does not have a web site herself…yet! It might be difficult to get an appointment with her. The day I made my first appointment I got it because someone else cancelled out, and I lucked out!
Please feel free to post any information you have on scar revision in this thread. All of these sites in this thread have information on scar revision. I have included an encyclopedia in the links posted in this thread.
The above link is to a butt Subcision, which is being done to eradicate the dimples on this person’s butt. Subcision is being done on thighs and butts so they will look better in brief bikinis. Subcision is also used as a means to soften facial lines. Ooo, :roll I bet that Butt hurt for a couple of weeks after that procedure!
The above link is to a message from a person who had Subcision done by a doctor located in London, 😀 England.
Maya, this particular Subcision sounds a lot like needling to me. When I had my procedure done I had a lot of bleeding with a very large clot under the skin, which had a compression bandaid on it that lasted 8 hours, and helped to keep the swelling down. With Needling I don’t think there is a lot of blood? The doctor did not direct me to use ice to keep the swelling down. I think you need the large clot to form under the epidermis in order to hold the 2 layers apart while the collagen is healing. BUT I have read about a full face needling procedure done on an Asian person who said that his face swelled up quite a bit after the procedure. I do not know how long this swelling persisted.
I have read that some doctors are putting in filler to fill in the pocket that is created where the Subcision has cleared out the too short collagen fibers, and this is being done immediately after the Subcision procedure.
Adding fillers will raise the price of Subcision quite a bit.
What I had done was without any filler. My body is providing the filler. I do support the growth of collagen by taking at least a gram or more of vit C every day and I am using a sulfur based moisture cream that is carried into the dermis level of my skin by the addition of aloe. Aloe is often used as a ‘carrier’ for other skin care products because of its trans-dermal property.
The above link is to the Indian Journal of Dermatology. Subcision is being done all over the planet. :mrgreen Today we do indeed live in a ‘small world.’ Subcision is a very good choice for person’s who have darker skin because it does NOT damage the upper epidermal layer of the skin. Fillers can be used or not after the Subcision. Mild peels or V-Beam can be used afterwards to stimulate more collagen and fill in very shallow scars that do not need Subcision.
The above link is to Subcision for the eradication of facial lines. Botox has been used to smooth out facial lines and wrinkles BUT Botox is expensive and has to be repeated in order to keep the face smooth. Subcision is a permanent solution, and sometimes it has to be repeated depending on the skill of the doctor and the manner in which the patient’s skin produces collagen. Of course if you opt for a doctor who does Subcision and then injects permanent filler it is just plain permanent. The price for a single scar to be Subcised ranges from $85 American on up to several hundred dollars. I opted to have a single scar done because I did not know how my body would respond to this procedure. I am very pleased with the outcome and I paid only $85 American. The doctor I saw charges $150 American for at least 20 scars to be Subcised, and I have heard that a doctor on the East Coast charges up to $700 for the same procedure. Right now there is a big price difference, and this benefits the consumer, namely those of us who need this procedure.
😀 I am showing a lot of different ways that Subcision is being used because I want people to understand that Subcision is for many different types of scars, not just acne scars. So if you have a friend who has a scar from a car accident or some other mishap then let them know that this option is out there for them to pursue. Also, I do not say much about Needling because it is Maya’s domain because she is the person who is having all the experience with Needling and therefore is the expert. I would refer you to read Maya’s thread on Needling to know about the options in this treatment.
The above link is to a Subcision procedure that was performed on young woman who had acne scars. The 2nd photo was taken 1 week after the procedure. You can see that her skin is still bruised. It takes 4 to 6 weeks for the collagen to fill in acne scars after Subcision. :book How far the skin fills in with it’s own collagen is dependent on the skill of the doctor doing the procedure, and the patient’s ability to produce their own collagen.
:crazyeyes I think I have already mentioned that I take at least a gram of vit C every day. Some times I will take more it depends on what trees are pollinating. I have allergy to trees, and I take extra C when allergy time rolls around. The C stops allergy.
I divide my supplements between my 2 main meals. I take a lot of supplements to support my immune system and to keep the acne away. I am lucky that I love to cook and plan out meals that are rich in nutrients that support my health. I intend to live a long and prosperous life, and good diet and supplementation combined with physical exercise, and of course inner peace are the four corners of human philosophy that make it possible to achieve this goal.
😀 The above link is to a site about a doctor who uses ‘thin wire Subcision’. This type of Subcision also makes me think of Needling. Maya, perhaps you might like to include this site in your Needling thread?
This doctor’s patients do not bleed much, and they do not bruise much. This makes me wonder how good the improvement is to the scars he works on.? :scratch When I had my treatment there was a lot of blood and a blood clot was under the skin for at least 8 days plus the surface bruising took around 8 days to clear out. I just want to show that different doctors approach this technique in different ways.
The above link is to a book that describes in detail the various techniques of skin augmentation.. I am sure someone will be interested in owning this book.
This person traveled from Dallas, Texas to New Jersey to get Subcision done. There are not very many doctors doing this procedure today. I have met a person here in California who traveled to New Jersey to get this procedure done. We need more doctors doing this procedure, and I am sure that in time there will be quite a few as it gains in popularity but we really need them now!
The letter below is one I posted to a person who was very concerned about facial acne scars. I think that body scars like on the shoulders and back will respond to Subcision. At last there is help for persons who have body scars from this terrible disfiguring disease.
Hi Steve 😀
I have asked several dermatologists the same question you asked, “Why did I scar from acne when I did not do anything to it?” I say several because I have tried different ones over the years trying to find one that wasn’t just guessing at how to get rid of my problem. Right now I don’t have much of a problem with acne at all but I do have some scars from past acne.
First, red marks will go away in time they really are not true scars.
True scars from acne are depressions in the skin.
The depressions are caused by the infection that is inside the inflamed pimple/cyst eating up the collagen in the dermis level of your skin. Once the inflammation (pus) goes away there is an empty pocket in the lower level of your skin, the dermis, which is the level below the epidermis, and the epidermis sinks in, and is seen as a depressed scar on the surface of your skin. This empty eaten out area fills in with short collagen fibers between the lower dermis, and the upper epidermis level of your skin that actually hold the scar in place, and no matter how many peels or laser treatments you get the scar remains depressed.
Sometimes wiping off the pus head, if there is one involved with the pimple, with a sterile gauze pad that has a dab of 70% alcohol on it, and applying a good antibiotic cream or gel afterwards to the area like zinc bactrin will kill off the inflammation that is still in the upper epidermis level of your skin, and your skin will heal on the surface without a scar, because the lower dermis level will not be eaten away. People tell you to not squeeze because squeezing can force the infection into the lower dermis level of your skin and then it can get worse, and end up scarring.
If you have a deeper infection like a cyst that does not have a pus head on the surface of your skin, and hurts when you touch it then you could get an injection from your dermatologist that is done directly into the cyst. This injection could be an antibiotic that is injected. When antibiotic is used this way it will be a local and not a systemic antibiotic. This is much better than taking antibiotics by mouth, which is systemic treatment and can cause other problems. I had some of these injections directly into the cysts in the past, and when this is done the cyst does not make a scar. I have read that sometimes cortisone is used for this injection instead, and this also makes the inflammation go down, and the end result is the same because the skin does not scar.
Does this make sense to you? I am trying to explain what a doctor told me when I asked why I got the scars I got.
Don’t despair if you have any acne scars now.
If they are truly depressed scars there are things that can be done. I recently had a procedure called Subcision done on a rather nasty scar that was on my cheek. You have to find a doctor who really knows how to do this procedure, and has done it on many patients before you because it takes great skill to do it right. The doctor numbs the area of your skin where he/she is going to do the procedure. He/she will mark the area with a surgical marker. The Subcision is done with a needle that has some sort of cutter on it. I did not see the needle so couldn’t say what it actually looks like. I could not see anything but I could hear the sound in my ears of the strands of my collagen breaking. It sounded like threads being cut. After the procedure the nurse cleaned off the surgical marker and applied a bandaid but she applied it tightly to cut down on the swelling. You don’t want to swell up too much. The bandaid stayed on for about 8 hours before it fell off and I could get a better look at the bruise I had. I did not receive any instructions to put anything on the area but I was told it was ok to put the MSM/aloe cream I use and the Jojoba oil also, which I did. I have a second appointment to see this doctor for the same procedure next month because the doctor said that the scar might need a second Subcision. Today it is 7 days since the procedure and the bruising is almost gone. I can’t see the scar at all. The idea behind this new procedure is that when a scar forms the healing of the collagen becomes ‘short’ in places between the outer epidermis level of the skin and the inner dermis level of the skin. The doctor just cuts the ‘short’ collagen fibers and they hopefully will be replaced by fresh collagen that has ‘longer’ fibers attaching the lower dermis to the upper epidermis. When the length of the collagen fibers between the upper epidermis and the lower dermis level of the skin are elongated the scar disappears from the surface of the skin. Flawless skin is the result. Can you believe that? I keep looking in the mirror at my former terrible scar, and it is not there now!
I know all of this sounds just too simple but that is what is so amazing about this procedure! It is so simple, and so safe. It will not work on all scars because some scars are only in the upper epidermis level of the skin, and can only be removed by removing the upper layer of the skin several times over and over in order to reach a lower level where the skin evens out.
Be careful and make sure any doctor you see is an expert in scar revision because going to someone who is only interested in making a lot of money off of you could leave you with the same scars you had when you first saw the doctor and with a smaller bank account afterward or worse the doctor could do something wrong, and leave you with worse scars from whatever they do to you.. Some doctors are doing laser on people who should have Subcision, and the patient wonders afterwards WHY the laser did not remove the scars. It is because the collagen fibers are holding the scar in place!
Good Luck I hope I have helped in some small way. :angel
PS I am going to include this reply to you in my thread on getting rid of shallow acne scars since I have had this positive experience with Subcision. The funny part is that I went to this doctor to get a chemical peel, which is much more expensive than the Subcision, and she said that Subcision would get rid of the really bad scar that was on my cheek. She does this procedure all the time with positive results. I may still get the chemical peel some time in the future for my more superficial scars. I hope you have as much luck as I have had.
The following link is to a web site that is selling a ‘cheap’ method to get rid of shallow acne scars, and we really need low cost methods these days. I think these cloths would work best on skin that is not inflamed with acne but has shallow acne scars from past breakouts. Please read this web site over and make up your own mind as to if you want to give it a try. 🙂
This is the Exoderm Lift forum. Exoderm is a peel that dissolves the top layer of the face to remove acne scars. Several Exoderms may be needed for deep scars. :eek
This page explains the Exoderm Lift. There is a link to Dr. Rullan’s home page here. While the Exoderm Lift was invented in Israel there are several American doctors that have been trained in how to perform this procedure. :girl
The Exoderm Lift is one of the ultimate face peels that removes acne scars. A person should be in excellent health to have this procedure done. I do not know if women on birth control are eligable to have this procedure done. Exoderm is composed of several chemicals, which melt the top layer of the skin, and takes about 8 days to complete the peel. The face takes on a ‘lifted’ appearance after this peel hense the name, Exoderm Lift. I do believe that people who have this peel done have a red face for several weeks to several months afterward. The lengrth of time for the redness is mainly dependent on the individual person’s chemistry. The link I have provide here is to the website in Israel. It is written in both Hebrew and in English, and you are given a choice as to which language you wish to read it in. I know this procedure is also performed by doctors here in the US. The cost in the US is in the $4000 range per peel, and severe acne scars may need more than one of these peels. :roll
Here is a news article on the history of chemical skin peels, which go back to ancient Egypt where Cleopatra used milk to bathe in so her skin would exfoliate faster and remain light in color. This is an excellent article, and I know that everyone who is interested in removing shallow acne scars will find this article a very good read. :crazyeyes
Skintech web site with the Unideep Peel for surface scars, another peel called the Easy Phytic Solution, and several creams including one that is a Special Depigmentation Cream, which is used to help even out the skin color after a deep peel. :tu
This link is to a paper on acne and acne scars and why it is important to treat. This paper was written by Gregory J. Goodman, President, Skin and Cancer Foundation Melbourne, VIC. This paper originally appeared in eMJA , which is The Medical Journal of Australia. On this page you will find a home page link to this prestigious publication, which may contain other articles on skin and scar repair in both the past, and sometime in the future. You may want to save this link. 8)
This is not a link instead it is a post I copied from the voy board because the poster outlined how to do an Obagi Blue Peel at home. I know if you search the web you can find wholesale outlets where you can obtain the Obagi products. Obagi costs quite a bit at a dermatologist’s office. Obagi peel is not for anyone with thin or sensitive skin, and it is not for anyone who has recentily finished Accutane. Check with your OBGYN/Dermatologist doctor to find out if you can do any skin peels if you are presentily taking any form of birth control because hormone levels can affect how your skin reacts to any chemicals you put on it. :flirt
OBAGI PROTOCOLS — SAM, 01:01:07 09/19/02 Thu
I GOT THE OBAGI PROTOCOLS FROM WWW.SKINTRIGUE.COM BUT I DO NOT KNOW IF THEY WILL SHIP INTERNATIONALY AS IT STATES ON THERE SITE,IT IS BECAUSE OF LOST GOODS DUE TO SEPTEMBER 11.
HE WILL ONLY SHIP TO ME AS I HAVE BEEN GETTING PRODUCTS OF THEM FOR QUITE SOME TIME NOW BUT I WILL ASK THEM FOR YOU.
YOU CAN GET THEM OF WWW.EBAY.COM CHEAP,JUST TYPE OBAGI IN THE SEARCH BOX BUT BE CAREFULL AS SOME OF THE OBAGI PRODUCTS ARE OUT OF DATE.
1)OBAGI FOAMING GEL,
4)OBAGI EXFODERM FORTE,
6)OBAGI SUNFADER AND RETIN-A WHICH IS A 6 WEEK COURSE AND THE PRODUCT SHOULD LAST YOU 6 MONTHS.
RETIN-A AND BLENDER IS THE MAIN PRODUCTS THAT MAKE YOUR FACE PEEL,YOU MIX THE 2 TOGETHER IN YOUR PALM THEN DAB OR RUB GENTLY ONTO YOUR FACE.
THE OBAGI PROTOCOLS ARE NUMBERED 1 TO 6 AND YOU SHOULD USE THEM IN THIS ORDER.YOUR FACE WILL GO RED FOR 10 TO 14 DAYS THEN IT WILL START TO FADE BUT YOU WILL PEEL MABE ALL THE TIME YOU ARE ON THE PRODUCT,
YOU SHOULD SEE A DOCTOR SO HE CAN LOOK AT YOUR SKIN AND ADVISE YOU ABOUT PUTTING YOU ON OBAGI I DIDN’T,THIS MAY BE A CON TO GET MONEY OT OF US.
THERE’S ANOTHER SITE WWW.DERMATOLOGISTRX.COM,THIS IS CHEAP BUT I DO NOT KNOW IF THEY SELL ALL THE ABOVE OBAGI PRODUCTS AS I HAVE JUST FOUND IT TODAY.
WHEN YOU HAVE PUT THE FIRST 4 PRODUCTS ON PUT THE BLENDER AND RETIN-A GEL ON WHICH IS THE 5TH WAIT 10 TO 20 MINS BEFORE YOU PUT THE SUNFADER ON THEN MIX A BIT MORE BLENDER AND RETIN-A GEL AGAIN AND PUT IT ON YOUR BAD SCARS THIS WILL MAKE YOU PEEL EVEN MORE,I DO.
YOU CAN STILL USE ANY SUNBLOCK AS WELL AS THE SUNFADER BUT I DON’T.
SORRY,HAVE TO GO.
You should always protect your skin with sunblock if you do any type of skin peel because your skin is more sensitive to damage when the top layer has been removed.
This link is to Hirudoid scar/bruise cream information. :mrgreen
Fascia /Fascian is an injectable scar filler. It is produced from human tissue. I am not a fan of this product but you might find this particular web site interesting :shock
Plastic Surgery Encyclopedia… :eek
Great site written by a pair of Dermatologists who are affiliated with the University of Alabama, USA. They write about many different fillers including Isolagen, which will be available in the US around March of 2003. 😀
This is a scar research company located in the UK. :turn
Emu oil is very good because it penetrates into the top layer of the skin, and most people do not seem to have a negative reaction to it. This web site claims that the Emu oil will make the scars look less noticeable? :shock
Aloe based scar removal system. This is completely new to me as I never thought of aloe as doing more than just sinking into the skin as a moisturizer. :scratch
DermaSponge claims to remove wrinkles, lines and skin discolorations but does not say it will remove scars but thought I would include it because if it will remove the top layer of the skin then if it is used many times over and over then how far will it penetrate into the epidermis of the skin? 🙂